Transcript:

  Julie: So we are here tonight with Derek, Liz, and Karina. Thank you guys so much for being here tonight. I’m gonna have everybody just introduce yourselves really quick. Derek, do you wanna go first?

Derrick: Yeah, my name’s Derrick. In recovery, I’ve been sober almost three years. I’ll be February 24th. I’ll be three years.

Been a long road here. It’s been a good road. I’ve gone through prison. I’ve gone through trauma abuse homelessness, and yeah, here I am today, smiling. Life’s good. Got my kids back. I’ve got a lot of good things happening in my life and it’s because I’ve found my path in recovery. So, yeah, I’m excited to be here.

Julie: Awesome, thanks for being here. And we met Derek on Instagram. I will include his Instagram profile and information in our show notes. So you can find him there if you wanna get to know him a little bit better. And then next we have Liz.

Liz: Hi, thanks for having me on. My name’s Liz.

I am 41 years old. I had to think about that for a second. 321 days sober today. And I live in North Carolina and I I work in marketing. I don’t know if that matters.

Julie: Sure, yeah. All right.

Steve: Everything matters.

Liz: Everything matters.

Julie: Awesome. Well, thanks for being here tonight. And then the last, but not least, we have Corinna.

Corinna: Hi guys. Thanks for letting me come on tonight. I am Corrina I am of an age. I live in Edmonton, Alberta, and this time around I have been, I am sober for six months and 13 days according to my, my app, my my counter.

Julie: Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you so much for being here. So to introduce our topic for tonight, I think a lot of people worry about telling others about their alcoholism and sobriety.

I know everyone here has shared with at least some people, either in person or on social media. We’ve all tackled it in slightly different ways. But what’s it like to tell people, what’s it like to go public? What kind of responses have you received and what has been the outcome?

Derrick: I mean, if you wanna talk about like what’s been the outcome in my addiction? I’ll say this, like I grew up Catholic. I grew up Italian,so there was a lot of shame around being an addict or looking for help. Like they didn’t know what to do with me. It’s like when I first started getting sober, I was so, I was really scared cause I wear my heart, my sleeve and I’m, I’m a gun slinger and it’s either a really good thing in my life or it’s a really bad thing.

But it’s been a really good thing when it comes to recovery now. Cause like I go for it. But that early, that early on, cause I was dealing up with so much mental health, I didn’t know how to deal with my emotions. I didn’t know how to cry. I didn’t know how to, like, just say, I love you to people or accept love.

The last thing I wanted you to know that I was a recovering alcoholic drug addict that’s been to prison homeless. So I, hid it at first, like I was finding sober living and I would still tell people like, yeah, you know, my drinking days are over and I’m a normal person again. It was scary at first until I got traction.

And obviously nowadays, like I’m not shy about it at all, but it, it was really hard to kind of open up and start talking about my life as an addict and in recovery and the problems that I had because there was such a stigma against. people that are in addiction and how we’re, you know, not normal and we’re not a part of society and we can’t be helped.

And we got, I got pushed aside a lot. So it’s like I felt like if I got sober or shared that I would get judged for that at job interviews. I get judged for that at churches. I get judged for in circles. Why can’t you drink? So it was just scary cuz I just, my whole life, I just wanted to be normal, if that makes sense.

Steve: Wanted to fit in. Yeah.

Derrick: Yeah. And, and that, that’s like the whole reason I drank was to fit in or to deal with all that unmanageability in my life. All that trauma hurt mental health. It, it quieted it for a little bit. Yeah. But it was just a bandaid. I wasn’t healing anything.

Steve: It just gave you a hole to put it in.That’s all. Eventually it has to come outta that hole. I know what you mean by you. Having to put it away and then even, even like, even the fear of recovering out loud, like you said, I, I like the word when you said traction, like it, you kind of slowly build that confidence up, like you want to say it, but you’re not sure how it’s gonna land.

Right. You’re just like, yeah, I, I wanna, I, I wanna scream this from the damn rooftop. I am an alcoholic and I’m fucking proud of it. Like ,I am. I, I, I’m proud of it because of where I am today and what I’ve done to get to where I am today. And it’s taken a lot of damn effort. Like, it’s one of the most, it’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever done, but it’s also the most rewarding thing I’ve ever done.

Julie: I was gonna say, for me, I’m finally, maybe for the first time, really proud of who I am, and so I want to share that with people and let them know why. And I’m proud of all of the work that I’ve done. I’m proud of who I’ve become and when I started out I wasn’t gonna tell anybody. I didn’t, the first time I quit drinking, I didn’t even tell my husband.

And now I’m like, I’m really proud of this and I’m really proud of what I’ve done. And I’m really angry that other people feel so much shame because of all the stigma. And I guess if any of us can talk about it, maybe it’ll help change the stigma a little bit.

Steve: I had to see someone do it before I could do it. Like I had to see someone find the courage to do that hard thing and then, and then it’s like, I can freaking do that. That is something I can do. That’s something I can stand behind. That is me. I’m just quiet about it. Why can’t I, like I had to once I was shown.

I could easily just stand in there. And that started like day one in sobriety. When I went to my first meeting. You can be sober. like you can quit. It started right there and the ripple effect of that just compounded.

Liz: You know, I just started a job this week and yesterday I had to do a five minute “me” presentation where I, they had a slide and I had to put a bunch of pictures up on it and then present myself for five minutes.

And one of the pictures was from when I went up to Niagara Falls to meet some people from sobriety, and and I thought about it. Because I mean, obviously sobriety is such an important part of my every day now, and the people who I feel closest to at this point in my life are people I’ve met through sobriety.

And so it’s, it, it almost seems like a waste to not talk about it. And, and I really thought long and hard about, do I want to say in front of, I guess it was like 50 people. Hi. I am sober and you know, this is my third day on the job. And you know, and ultimately I didn’t end up saying it. And part of me is kicking myself for not having the courage to do that.

And I, what I said to that picture was, I enjoy traveling. And it’s just, you know, and I do, that’s true. It’s not a lie, but it’s, it’s also, it wasn’t the full truth and that feels sad, you know. But it was that same thing about like, I don’t know any of these people and I don’t want them to judge me for that, even though I don’t feel like it’s anything to be ashamed of which, and I guess it sounds kind of hypocritical in a way for me to say. I don’t think it’s something to be ashamed of, and yet I didn’t talk about it.

But yeah, I don’t know. I’m hoping that it’s something that as they get to know me a little bit better, that I can speak to, cuz I think it’s just struggling between I’m the type of person who tends to just like put my whole life out there immediately and then trying to figure out like where is it safe to do that and where is it not safe to do that?

Julie: Yeah, I think, you know, you said you kind of regretted not saying something, and I think the longer we’re sober and the better we get at being our authentic selves when we aren’t, we’re like, Ooh, that was kind of uncomfortable.

I wish I would’ve just been a little more real.

Steve: Hmm. Yep.

Corinna: Oh, I was just gonna say for me obviously, so I’m a school teacher, so that’s not something I will announce to my class, my students necessarily, because they’re not of drinking age and it’s not their, it’s not really appropriate in that setting. However what I did was on my six month anniversaries, I made a post on social media on my Facebook page, which announced my six month sobriety.

And on my page I am friends with former principals, mentors, students, like former students and you know, friends and former bosses, et cetera. And so I got there, like, I just thought, you know, I am I wanna be accountable. So I want, I want people to, to know what, what I’m doing, but also if they want someone to talk to so that the, you know, so that, that was my outreach to them.

It’s kind of, it’s, it’s, I haven’t received anybody saying, Hey, listen, I, I really wanna get sober now. How can I, you know, how can I sign up and drink this koolaid? But I did have a lot of people come out of the woodwork to say, you know what? I made the same decision 20 years ago, or, I made that decision as well, or a family member did.

And it, and it’s, it’s been a life-changing decision. My story’s a little different in terms of being a functioning alcoholic that or a drinker. And we all know, so some of us use the term alcoholic and some of us use alcohol use disorder, and that’s obviously a broad spectrum. But even people, I think even people who don’t necessarily call them or, or who don’t necessarily abuse alcohol could still fit within that spectrum. Because they are the children of alcoholics or they have their, or they have partners that are alcoholics and it still changes your life. It changes how you navigate your world and, it is a disorder, right?

It causes disordered thinking and dysfunction. And for me, you know, being in a culture where drinking alcohol is so accepted, there are people who probably drink more than I do or who are more functioning than I am. And yet, that stigma, you know, we talk about the stigma. They, they don’t, they don’t see it as a problem necessarily.

Even though the same things that forced me to quit are, you know, what made, what made me realize that I had a problem. So, I just think it’s an interesting point in our, our society, in our culture, where alcohol is so venerated and celebrated. And yet it’s causing so much destruction and so much heartache.

So anyways, I put it up on Facebook and, you know, I hope to do, do it more often and to be that, that mentor to, to people who, who would wanna reach out and, and maybe consider it sobriety for themselves.

Steve: Brave, isn’t it? Liz, when you talked about work, I mean, here I am, you know, I sit on a podcast, I’m a co-host of a podcast, and the place that I fear the most is at my job. That’s, that’s where the fear sat with me the most. I had conversations with my parents, I’ve had conversations with friends, and when I went and I hit post on Facebook, when I posted a little bit of my story on Facebook, the worry for me, the fear for me when I hit that wasn’t family friends. It was all work related, all of it. That’s where that fear was, is what were they gonna say at work? Where I wonder what that rumor mill be like. I wonder, you know, it’s, it’s a place that has a lot of rumors and a lot of things that people, a lot say, a lot of things behind each other’s backs. Right. How is that gonna affect my life?

And I just, you know what? I was like, I have to accept this. I’m, I’m gonna co-host a podcast. I can’t hide behind this for too much longer. It’s just not gonna happen, right? Like I just can’t hide it. So I might as well stand in front of it and let, let it be what it’s gonna be. I haven’t had anybody really say anything to me at all.

And they know and that’s fine. That’s fair. It is not what I thought it was gonna be. Anytime I have shared a bit of my story, my whole story, to anyone outside of this circle of people, the circle of alcoholics or however you want to, whatever you want to call yourself, it doesn’t really matter.

Anyone, anyone I’ve shared it with. The story that I’ve told myself about how that was gonna go has been wrong every time.

Corinna: Steve, you and I talked about this before, what was interesting, what you found interesting and what I found interesting is in that public explanation, Hey, I’ve struggled with alcohol.

I’m six months sober. I’m, you know, a year sober, whatever. The people who responded, it was interesting. But what was more interesting to me was who wasn’t liking or giving me the thumbs up for support? People who would like other, sup, other parts of my posts or other parts of my life. And, and drinking coworkers who still imbibe, friends who aren’t probably don’t realize yet their own struggle with alcohol, or they do and they’re, they’re questioning or maybe, maybe they’re sober curious is a new term that’s being used. And yeah, it was very interesting who’s not bored with it and who thinks I’m making a big deal out of nothing and that I, it’s not that bad, you know?

Your drinking wasn’t that bad. And it’s like for me to get to the point where I had to quit my, my drinking was that bad.

Steve: My drinking wasn’t that bad. When you could see me. Right. Huh? Huh? It’s when you couldn’t see me.

Derrick: So you, you went back to what he said about seeing someone else do this.

And I guess this is the biggest reason I recover lot. Cause I remember those days when I felt so alone that I felt so uniquely broken that there was no fix for me. So like the first part for me was not seeing another way to do it. I didn’t need another man to tell me, or even women when I was in groups to open up and share that they were broken too.

And then I’d heard parts of myself in that. So like that’s what first made me go, okay, this person’s just like me, I just heard them talk about, you know, drinking or meth use or addiction and they’re having the same problems I am. And then when I started rolling, I wasn’t alone. And then they gave me these answers.

I said, okay, I can take this step. And like, cuz I got as, I’ve gotten better at recovery and I’m just built for, like I said, I work in recovery, so it’s easy to talk about at my job. I’ve realized how important it’s for people to. that they’re not alone. So like that, I mean, I probably post something one a day on Instagram, Facebook talking about my time in prison, talking about my trauma, talking about how I grew up in a family where we sarcastically beat each other up and we didn’t tell each other we loved each other, and how much that stuff caused me to drink.

How much my unhealthy behaviors that were taught by my parents and that wasn’t their fault. They were just taught that they were taught the same thing. And so now I’m breaking the chains, but then I realize like, I’ve been given this gift cuz there’s no reason I should be here today.

There’s no reason other than it’s a miracle or divine intervention cuz the many times that I’ve drank myself to death or put a needle in my arm or been arrested and sent back to prison or homeless on the street at 18 degrees. There’s no reason I should be here, but there should be a way out. So saying that stuff, like me talking about trauma work or emotions, like I love talking about alcohol and drugs, but I wanna remind people that that’s not our problem.

I wanna remind them that that’s our solution. That’s the thing that we use to deal and cope with life. So like recovering, all that’s so important to me is because if, again, if I can sit there and say, you know, I’ve come from prison, I’ve come from homelessness, I’ve come from mental health, trauma, abuse then there’s a way out and let’s find these answers.

So it’s always like, Hey, here’s the worst parts of me, but I promise life is gonna be better. And these worst parts of you, at some point will become their, your biggest strengths. They will become part of you that are a positive thing. Yeah. Because you can help people. You can teach your kids that you have growing up.

If you’re in a family, Hey, these are the things I learned. Let me teach you the right way. So let me show you the right ways, because I heal from them. That’s why it’s so important that I want to, cause I got two kids myself. My family’s full of addicts, they struggle and I’m breaking the chains. But you don’t break the chains by being silent.

You don’t break the chains without stepping into it and that that is very scary cuz there’s a lot of times I get people that call me things, how dare you do this? How dare you do that and say, I don’t think about that one person that had this mean thing to say. I think about the 2 -300 people that reached out and go, Hey, that just changed my day.

Hey, where can I go to get resources to talk about going IOP or women’s groups or men’s groups? That’s why I do it. There’s always gonna be people that are gonna be against you. But it’s, it is about that person that you remember being and offering them that hand out of the dark. That’s, that’s why I do, and I love it.

Like it’s, no one’s ever gonna talk you back from that. But I, I remember that people are sick and we just use drugs and alcohol to deal with it, and then I’m reminded that everybody’s dealing with something and this could give them answers to come out of their darkness. So that, that’s right. Like the biggest reasons I would cover out loud.

Julie: Yeah, I posted on our Instagram page actually the first like really vulnerable post that I’ve put just out there for the whole world to see. I’ve posted little things here and there in groups, but it was pretty real. It was about like self-hatred and like trying to turn that into self-love and kind of the dark place that I started out.

And that was kind of scary to put that out there for the whole world to have and, and for them to do whatever they wanna do with it. And it’s right there next to my picture, which to me was, I mean, I, I’m on a podcast like I’m not hiding, but at the same time I’m like, here’s my picture and here’s a really dark bit of my story.

And like, that was kind of squirmy for me to hit post on that. But you know, I’ve gotten a fair bit of feedback from those words. And that’s the stuff people need to hear. It’s not just the, I’m an alcoholic and I’m in recovery and my life is great now. They need the vulnerable part. That’s what the people who are really struggling or who really feel that alone or feel like their situation is so impossible, they need our dark stories and our vulnerability, and that’s, I think what really gives people hope.

It’s recovering out loud, I think, is a lot more than just, you know, here’s me and here’s, here’s my picture and I’m recovering. It’s, it’s really sharing the work that we’re doing. But that can be scary.

Derrick: That’s what I was just gonna say. Vulnerability used to be the biggest weakness for me. And now that the guys I coach as like you getting vulnerable will become your biggest strength. Being able to show your emotions in a healthy way will not be a weakness. That’ll be one of your greatest strengths and a power that you’ll never know cuz it’s the coolest feeling to cry in front of a guy and then tell ’em you love them and need it and just know how that feels.

And this is for men and women. We both just shut ourselves off as alcoholics and addicts. We bury it, bury it, and sooner than we blow up. So vulnerability is definitely a strength.

Steve: With what you guys both said with the vulnerability, sharing a reflection of yourself so someone else can see theirs.

Yeah, sometimes we hide things so deep that we don’t want to see it until someone decides to show you that piece of yourself in their own story. And that’s what opens up that conversation. That’s what opens up those tears, those floodgates right there. Yeah. You know what I’m talking about. And it’s when that door opened, you just gave somebody a chance to heal.

And when you give somebody a chance to heal, like that, it’s an incredible what you get to see in return. Right? A life changes in front of your eyes every time that happens. That little piece of vulnerability, that little, when you break down into tears, I’ve done it in front of basically all, all of you, except for you, Derrick..

And it’s a wonderful thing to experience life in color like I do now. It just is. I’ll take the feelings cuz I’ll take the highs and I’ll take the lows and everything in between. It’s a lot better than feeling nothing or trying to , right? Yep. . Yep.

Derrick: That’s the piece that hits home for me. Cause I remember those early days.

when I was still trying to hide, wear all the masks, tell everyone I was okay. I was passive aggressive, sarcastic, had the biggest smile on my face, but on the inside I’m just screaming. And it was, it was someone else. When I finally said, Hey, like I did this, like this is what I’m doing. And a guy goes, you know what?

I’ve done the same thing. And that light bulb went off of me and I looked at him, I’m like, what do you mean you did the same thing? And that, that feeling of not being alone and my shame was huge. It started to let go of shame so I could go, okay, well tell me more Cuz if I’m not alone and you’re doing this well at 12 years sober, I might listen to you, you know,

Liz: Well, Julie, I I read your, your Instagram post and what’s funny is that listening to you talk about it just. It didn’t even occur to me that you were being so vulnerable and putting yourself out there in such a big way, because I know you from, you know, inside an app that some of us know each other from where people not always, but you know, a fair amount of us do post pretty vulnerably and that’s how, you know, with Steve and Julie, particularly in my early days of sobriety, they were so vulnerable and authentic and open and talking about the really hard ugly things that a lot of us try to hide.

And that is, that’s how I healed was, was seeing that in other people and realizing that the things that I was so deeply ashamed of other people were going through too, and that, you know, just not being alone in it. And so, I mean, yeah, it’s y’all and I mean everybody, you know, have everybody in this community. You’ve touched me deeply and helped me on my journey and yeah, I mean it’s, it’s, I think it’s really commendable that you’re now putting it out there in a very public way. And Derrick, you too, you’re, you’re recovering out loud in a big way, and that’s just incredible. You know, because you don’t, I mean, like, you don’t even know the people you’re touching, so they might not be commenting, they might not be liking, they might, might not.

You know, and same thing with you Corrina with the the Facebook post. Like for the people who didn’t respond, I wonder if there were people out there who still read it and it still made an impact. So just, you know, kudos to y’all for doing that.

Julie: I think we always say, and I mean it’s even in like our intro, vulnerability is the antidote to shame.

And when I started this whole journey, shame was the entire theme of it all. I was so completely ashamed of who I was. There was no way, yeah, I mean that’s, there was no way I was gonna let anybody see any of this, and it’s a complete flip now. I’m like podcasting about it. But that really just, that gets rid of all the shame.

There’s no shame left. When you put all of your, your vulnerable stuff out there, you’re met with a ton of acceptance and a ton of love and it makes all that shame go away completely. I’ve received so much kindness and encouragement and empathy from people. For being as vulnerable as I have been.

That one or two remarks that are toward the negative really aren’t going to affect me anymore.

Derrick: Well, maybe just a little bit

Julie: Maybe, but they’re not gonna, they’re not gonna crush me.

That one guy, that one guy will say something and I gotta call my sponsor. I’m like, this guy totally gave me one that I’m not sure , I’m in my ego right now, but that guy really hurt. My sponsor is like, how many likes did you have? How many good comments? I’m like, there’s like 100, 200. He goes, why do you wanna focus on the one dude? I’m like, you’re right. My bad. That is true. Didn’t up . No, that’s a really good, good point. That’s, that’s the shame you’re talking about. That’s the shame I’ve lived in my whole life.

Yeah. I could get 200 people tell me I did a great job and I could have had my dad saying, Hey, this is where you could have done better and I’m gonna listen to my. Yep. You know, because that’s just how I was raised. So it’s like that critical part. Okay, how can I be perfect? Like, we’re such perfectionists.

I’m a yes man. So let me make, if I can make you happy, then maybe I could be happy. I need to convince you and being able to let go of that finally in my life and understand that I’m not gonna make everyone happy. Not everyone’s gonna like my style. Not everyone’s gonna say, high five, Derek, you’re doing great.

I mean, that’s not what it’s about. It’s just about, you know, do I enjoy it first? Is it, am I okay with it? Is it good for my self-care? Because not everyone needs to recover out loud. I wanna say that. Like some people are just happy to get their families back and they go about their lives. Did you hear people like, you need to recover out loud?

No, I just want you to be happy with your life. I’m just built to do it, so I have joy in it. But the second is, is like this past week, I had a lady call me from the hospital on Facebook that I’ve never met. And she goes, you’re the only person I felt like I could talk to because I relapsed. I’m in the hospital and wasn’t gonna shame you or, or do that.

And I spent like 15 minutes on the phone with her just saying, you know, it’s okay. Relapse isn’t a mess up. You don’t lose all that. Like, we’ll take another step and we’ll get you some help. And that’s what that’s about. Like, that’s the cool stuff because when we go into that shameful place, we want to isolate.

We, we feel like we’re alone. And most of the time people said, why can’t you stop? Why can’t you move forward? Why can’t you do it for your family? You know, and I did like, that wasn’t gonna work for me. I needed someone to say, Hey, let’s get up and try and take another step. I’m with you. So that’s cool stuff. How that stuff happens like that.

Corrina: You start to just stand in your truth, your own truth, and being authentic to yourself. And, you know, there, there is a broad range of profiles of what, what a, what an addict looks like, what a, what somebody in recovery looks like. And for me to be out there out loud, you know, like there are other high functioning alcoholics who don’t think they have a problem or are questioning whether they have a problem.

That you know that because, because it is so accepted, you know, like I cannot tell you how many. Not retreats, but like after work drinks, you know, that that end up with people driving drunk or, you know, being wasted or, or the parties or even past the parties drinking home alone. And, and yet the front that they present, the professional front that they present.

And, and that shame, like I do drink too much, but I am a lawyer. I am a doctor. I am a teacher. I am a professional. And so for me to do it out loud, I would love for, for other people to see, well first of all, to understand like, you know, there, there is that, that fine line between being a heavy drinker and being an addict.

And I don’t think that that line is expressed enough. And then to be in recovery, cuz I fucking struggle. Like it’s hard not to drink. Even though I’m, you know, I still maintain my job, I still maintain my profile in society, my status. I still struggle, you know, I have this, I have struggles. And so for me to be out loud and to, to hopefully, like you say, to be vulnerable, you know, like I, I would like to see more people feel brave enough to take that step to, to say, I, I am an alcoholic and I also, I need to, I need to stop cuz I’m spinning out of control.

Julie: Yeah. And we never know who our story is gonna touch, even just a one-on-one conversation with somebody. You never know who’s going to hear what they need to hear. I mean, going public doesn’t have to be posting your picture and your deepest, darkest secrets on Instagram. But you know, it can be an honest conversation with friends, and you never know how that’s gonna touch that person.

I think even just having the courage to do that, it, it really says a lot.

Derrick: Even you bring that up like that, that’s like the, the gentleman I live with, I won’t say his name, but he’s a total norm and he doesn’t have a drinking problem. You know, he’s got his life together. He’s, you know, makes good money, stuff like that.

He reached, he reached out to me recently and we’ve been living together for like eight months and he’s always watching my stuff, but he doesn’t really like it. You know, he just, I can always see his little, you know, you can see people’s pictures on there and who view your stories and stuff. Well, he, I mean, he reached out and he goes, Hey man, like I can’t tell you how much your stories and how you speak up about vulnerability and talking about what you do.

It’s making me think that I need help too. And he’s gonna go and get help, but we’re sitting down Monday night to have dinner. And that’s what I mean, like, you don’t even, like, that’s what I’m saying, like us being addicts and alcoholics is, is not the problem. That’s just something that gave us a solution to people that, the whole world needs this stuff because the whole world’s broken in certain ways, and we just all have different ways of dealing with it. So that’s just another cool, cool way to share my story that has nothing aligned with his, he’s never been to prison, he’s never been homeless. He’s taken care of his bills, paid his taxes, everything looks all right.

But really on the inside, he has some questions going on about, you know, things he needs to deal with. And that, that’s what’s cool is like you said, Liz, is you don’t know who this is touching. Even if they like your posts or don’t like your posts, like it’s hitting someone in the chest and making them start to think that they can change too.

Steve: If we never talk about it, we never give it an opportunity to go away. We never give it an opportunity to help someone else. Right. Like we talked about recovering out loud and one of the big things that we talked about here is stepping inside of our shame so we can share what we’ve been shown. If anything, that is basically the key to this whole thing.

And it’s beautiful when you do give yourself and somebody else a chance to see a little bit of you. So maybe they can see a little bit of themselves, even somebody that’s not an alcoholic. I just wanna say thank you guys for coming on the podcast, sharing your stories of recovering out loud. Really appreciate your time, thank you guys.