Transcript:

Julie: We are here tonight with Martin, Molly and Jake. And as always, we’ll have you guys do introductions. Martin, how are you tonight?

Martin: Doing excellent. It’s such an honor to be here. Really looking forward to the show tonight.

Julie: And do you want to tell us just a little bit about yourself?

Martin: Sure. I am 43, almost 44 years old, and I am in Lebanon, PA. Originally from Portland, OR, and I’m a substance abuse counselor.

Steve: Awesome.

Julie: Awesome, really glad to have you here. And Molly?

Molly: Hi everyone! It is so great to see everyone, this is so exciting. I’m very glad to be here. My name is Molly. I’m 34. I’m a traveling imaging technologist, so I got all over the country doing CAT scans on people. I like to call myself a “frontline pandemic survivor” because I worked in hospitals through the entire pandemic. And also, my sober date is November 8 of 2020, so I got sober in the pandemic, too. So those are things I like to be proud of about myself. But yeah, I love being on here with you guys, and I’m excited to talk some more.

Julie: Yeah, we’re really glad to have you back. Molly has been on several episodes with us and is a dear friend of ours, so it’s nice to see you again. And last but not least, we have Jake.

Jake: Hi everybody. My name is Jacob Brown. I’m very excited to be here. I am a transformation/motivational speaker. I travel nationally and internationally abroad, speaking about a concept called Fail Forward – failing forward. I am also the Chief Transformation Officer for a company called Purpose Points. We engage, inspire and impact thousands of individuals and companies to seek their purpose and to lead with purpose as well. So I lead the sector with colleges and college students as they are leaving college. And students, specifically athletes. I played college football and I also went on to the NFL and I know the transition from the athletic sports realm into the corporate America realm or any part of the business sector is a huge transition. So coaching and working with students when they come out of college to understand what that transition looks like and to better serve them that way. I am 17 and a half months sober today, exactly! 533 days, so by the grace of God, I’ll be celebrating two years in August, so on August 25^th, and I will be celebrating my 40^th birthday on June 10. So I’m very excited about everything this year. 2023 is looking very bright, and I’m very excited to be kicking it off with you guys.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely, we are so so glad to have you here. And I will include everybody’s links and information and Instagram and all of that in our show notes so that all of our listeners can get in touch with you guys and follow you as well.

So for our topic tonight, my recovery mantra, so to speak, is Create a life so full that there’s no space left for alcohol. As we make our way along the path of recovery, we start seeing things that need to change. We start realizing there are things that we want to do, and all of that is part of creating a life that we don’t want to escape from. One of the biggest things that holds us back from doing that is self doubt. So I want to talk about self doubt tonight. When have you experienced it, how has it held you back, and what have you learned to help you overcome it?

Martin: I’ll go ahead and jump right in, I guess. So let me apologize, I didn’t say my clean date at the intro. I’ve been clean since January 1, 2004. So I just hit my 19 year mark last month. So, like most people, self doubt, dealing with negative feelings and a negative self concept is… well, I’ll speak for myself, that was at the root of my addiction to alcohol. And just trying to numb those very difficult feelings that I didn’t know how to cope with. And so, I’ll say specifically, I also speak publicly, and I just spoke at my first conference – a youth conference here in Pennsylvania here in December. I’ve spoke at a lot of DUI victim impact panels and high schools and things like that. And if you had asked me 20 years ago, “What’s your dream? What would you do? Something you feel extremely inferior about in this moment, and how would you overcome that, and what would that dream look like, if you were to overcome it and be living that?” It definitely would’ve been public speaking. I had zero confidence in myself that I would ever be able to achieve that. And I’ll tell you what, this is what I’ve learned along this journey. The more I practice anything, and I think this came from my mother and her saying, “Martin, whatever you apply your mind to, you can be successful,” cliche. But there was so much truth in that. And the biggest impediment was myself. And I think taking on the messages from society that tells us that we’re not good enough, or that we can’t achieve this or can’t achieve that; if you come from this socioeconomic class then your ceiling is here. And pushing through all of that and saying, “You know what? I’m going to try.” I’m just going to try. And if I don’t succeed, what’s the worst that’s going to happen? Right? What’s the worst they can do to me if I get up here in front of them, and I fumble over my words, and I’m terrible at public speaking? What’s the worst that’s going to happen?

Steve: What’s the worst that’s going to happen. How many times, if you just live by that alone, just that alone.

Julie: That’s something my therapist told me back when I was really struggling with anxiety, actually. What is the absolute worst thing that can come from this thing you’re worrying about? And almost always, the very worst thing was something I could still very definitely live through. Just that little tool has been huge for me. I definitely still have lots of self doubt, but that one little trick is a big one.

Molly: When we were picturing the worst thing that could happen… you know, for me, it would be going back to just someone being rude, or having a comment putting me down, or something along those lines. What I tried to turn around in my head – and I did, very successfully – is realizing that people who view my weakness or my stumble or my mistake as a reason to attack me? Those people really need to look inward, and understand why they feel the need to do something like that. Because healthy people build each other up. Healthy people do what we’re doing here. When it became less about being afraid of other people’s reactions towards me and me understanding that people’s behavior is a reflection of them, not of me. That was a game changer for me, because not any time someone is rude to me, or there’s that’s completely uncalled for in any situation, whether it’s work, a friendship, a relationship, something like that. My first reaction for the longest time when I was stuck in the shame cycle of drinking was, “I did something to deserve this. I earned this shame.” But now, I’m like, “Why are you coming at me like that?” You know? What is going on in your life that makes you want to jump down my throat or jump down and attack me? It’s a perspective shift that was very important to me.

Jake: Oh my God, can I piggyback off what Molly just said, and also Martin. Martin, you talked about public speaking, and if you asked yourself twenty years ago, that would be the last thing that you would… Same here. I would’ve never thought that I would ever be a motivational speaker. I always thought it was cheesy, to be quite honest. My mom was always one of those people that would inspire me to manifest things and to lay on my back before a football game and picture myself scoring a touchdown. Imagine myself throwing a touchdown. And then when I got in the game, it happened. And I’m wondering how that happened. Well, I was manifesting myself doing it before it happened. I was picturing myself winning before it happened, right? But in terms of jumping into something that you’re uncomfortable with, or that you might feel self doubt. There’s a quote that says, “Be brave enough to suck at something at first.” Be brave enough to suck at something at first! And the more I think about that… Brene Brown… and Molly, this is kind of the piggyback off of what you just said, in terms of people that are outside talking about you. Brene Brown – if you guys haven’t seen Brene Brown, a fantastic speaker. A fantastic coach. She speaks about shame and guilt and vulnerability. And she tells a story about the man in the arena. The man inside the arena, and everyone else that’s watching, those that are hecklers and throwing stuff at her. Saying, “Oh, you’re fat. Oh, you suck. Oh, you can’t speak well.” Right? They’re all in the crowd, they’re not on the field. Because the people that are actually in the arena, on the field, don’t have time to be throwing and hailing downtalk to you. But you have to remember that when people are throwing those things at you and saying those stupid things to you, trying to make you feel bad and bring you down. They are already beneath you, first of all. Anyone trying to bring you down is already beneath you. Second of all… and I don’t mean that as you’re above anyone, I mean that they’re lowering themselves to pull you down, right? But the people that are doing that to you, they’re not in the game. They’re too afraid, right? And even if you’re sucking, at least you’re on the field, and at least you’re trying, and at least you’re getting better. Because I guarantee, twenty years ago Martin, you’re way better today because you were willing to suck first. And I look at some of my talks two years ago and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what in the world was I doing?” (laughs) But I was willing to suck at something at first, right? So that impostor syndrome happens right before. And I talk about this all the time – that impostor syndrome only comes and self doubt only comes right before something amazing is about to happen. It only comes right before something amazing is about to happen. Because I remember in my drunken stupor, it was when I stopped, and started to do well and started to excel at things. That’s when the impostor came and said, “Hey, you remember that bottle you used to grab? Remember that story you used to drive by? That’s where you belong.” But that impostor is lying, it’s lying to you. And you guys all know that now. I just love this topic.

Julie: Talk about impostor syndrome. Steve and I, right before we got on here. He’s gonna laugh now. (laughter.)

Steve: It’s true!

Julie: We are a couple of podcasters… not professional podcasters, and we’re going to have a motivation speaker on our podcast. I was like, “Steve, I have major impostor syndrome right now.”

Steve: Motivation speakers.

Julie: Speakers, yeah! And there was so much impostor syndrome there. And you’re completely right, because look at this amazing experience that we’re having.

Steve: Absolutely! Sending the message to both you – “Hey, do you want to be on the podcast?” They’re just going to say no. They’re just going to say no, but we’re going try anyway. We’re just going to try.

Molly: When Steve told me, and he invited me to be on this one, he says, “Oh, there’s this guy named Martin and Jacob that are going to be on there.” And he sent me links to both of your Instagrams. And I was like, “Whoa!” I’m barely involved in social media. I have fifty followers or something. It’s never been my jam to get out there and do the kind of public, motivational speaking. I have my group of friends here like Steve and Julie, and the IAS people. But I feel like I’m out of my depth here, these people are professionals! But then I realize – no, we’re all getting together and talking about something that we’re passionate about. Regardless of where we’re at in life, we can have that commonality. Which I think is one of the coolest things about sobriety in general. It’s very uniting.

Steve: Everyone’s seat at the table is the same size.

Martin: Absolutely. In recovery – and I was making this point. I had just testified in front of the Oregon Senate Judiciary Committee because they have a bill coming up to expand substance use treatment services in the department of corrections. So I was responding to one of the committee members questions as to, right now services are only available to people who are in under six months. So if you come in with ten years, fifteen years, twenty years, you have to wait until the last six months. And she said, “If they’re in prison, the substance is no longer available essentially.” We know you can still get stuff in. But she said, “What would be the need to offer these services up front?” And so I gladly took on that question. It was an open forum at that point. I said, “Simply removing the substance does not equate to recovery.” That is sobriety. There is a huge difference. And so I talked about this whole bio- psycho- social- spiritual model where all those aspects of our lives were compromised in our addiction. Therefore, it would make sense that we have to make a concerted effort to provide that balance and fill up our lives across all four aspects of our lives. That takes practice and time and repetition. Making mistakes, figuring out what works and what doesn’t work. And so for me, I had ample time to obviously to start to fill in those aspects of my life, and create that structure, which I’ve replicated now that I’m out. In doing that, I had to try a lot of new things. I had never even gone bowling. I jumped out of airplane. I’m afraid of heights, I’m still deathly afraid of heights. (laughter) About 14,500 feet, right? And it was the most exhilarating experience ever. I’ve gone hiking, I’ve been to the Bahamas, I’ve gone on cruises. I’m just allowing myself to experience life. And I’m throwing all caution to the wind. And I think because I was confined for almost twenty years and was unable to do these things, now that I have my freedom, I want to be free. I want to be free to try new things, I want to be free to fail, and I want to be free to to make mistakes and I want to be free to learn. I would not wish prison for seventeen and a half years on my worst enemy. But the freedom it has given me both figuratively and literally has been invaluable. It has opened up a whole new world. And so I’ve said all that to say, don’t be a prisoner of your potential. Don’t restrict yourself and disallow yourself to step into life and to live it full of joy and fulfillment. Try new things. Somethings you won’t like, but some things you will absolutely love. But you won’t know unless you try.

Steve: That’s the beauty of it all, right? I started thinking about self doubt. Self doubt is a belief. It’s all internal. Self doubt, right? And well… you can’t really believe in what you know. You can’t, because you just know it. So what does that mean? That means you can only believe in what you don’t know.

Molly: That’s kind of where faith comes in.

Jake: Exactly.

Molly: Faith has a lot of different meanings. Some people attribute it especially to a higher power, a very specific higher power. Other people just have a sense of hope, that maybe something is going to better than what it is now. I know in the beginning for me, going back to just self doubt, there had to be something better. Because I was at such a low mentally. I was suicidal. I should have probably been in some sort of rehab. The amount of drunk driving I did was just absolutely horrendous. It is a miracle I didn’t kill myself or someone else during that time. So there got to be a point where I have to have faith something else, because what exists right now cannot be it. That was what I clung to. I need to do things that I know are 100% good for me. And that turned into me eating better, exercising, feeding my soul and feeding my body correctly. I can’t remember that specific phrase you used Martin, psycho-social-mental-spiritual…? It was a great combination of all of those things! And I clung to that. That is such a great word, because it combines so many things. Just trying to align all of that, and have faith that you can create that kind of person.

Julie: One thing that came up for me when I was thinking about this is… one of the things that made me really nervous was going public with my recovery. Talking about my sobriety openly, starting a podcast … this is coming from a place of deep shame, where there was no way I was going to talk about addiction, or recovery for a long time. The idea of not just going a little bit public but like, podcast worldwide global public, you know? And honestly, there was no doubt in there that that was the right thing for me to do. And I realized one of the big things – and I talk about it all the time here – authenticity. It was such a big part of the whole first year of my recovery, just figuring out who I am and what my values are and what I really believe in. And when it came time to decide if I was really ready to do this, there was no question. And I think if we really cling to what our values are and what we really believe in, sometimes those decisions get a little bit easier to make. Maybe there’s just a little bit less doubt when those decisions really align with who we are authentically.

Jake: Most of my community is on LinkedIn. I’ve got about 52,000 followers on LinkedIn and I’ve been growing that community for the last 7-8 years. It’s a group of people that believe in a lot of the same concepts that I believe in. Empathy as leaders, failing forward, pushing through adversity, helping others. My title right after my name on LinkedIn is not my title of my job, it’s not any accolades I’ve ever gotten, it’s simply, “Human Being.” And I saw a CEO “Human Being” under his name, and I thought, “Oh my gosh, I’ve got to steal that.”

Steve: That is inspiring right there. That’s exactly it, that’s exactly who I am. Just a person, like you.

Jake: Yeah, and Molly you said it earlier, and Julie, you guys talked about it. The impostor syndrome before you jumped on here. But at the end of the day, we are all just human beings that have the same common struggle on the same common journey. Period. It doesn’t matter what our background is, it doesn’t matter what our race is, it doesn’t matter what our religion is, it doesn’t matter what our profession is. We are on the same journey, and we are all human beings, and we have the same feelings and struggles.

Steve: I’ve never seen a group of people like a bunch of sober people, completely ignore all of the differences and just look at similarities. We look at similarities like it’s the gold that sits in someone’s pocket and we’d like to share it and show it off. The difference is, they’re like, “What can I learn from you?” There is so much beauty in it. It’s one of the things I absolutely love about the sober community. Because it doesn’t matter if you’re old, young, sober for 19 years or sober for 1 day. You are welcome. Plain and simple.

Martin: Absolutely. You know, something that Julie said really struck a chord because I wholeheartedly agree. If there’s self doubt about something, there is confusion maybe about which direction you want to go in life. You’re not really sure, and so that creates self doubt. If you really get in tune with yourself, and you dig down deep at your core and you find out what your values are, and you find out what you’re passionate about, what do you believe in, what are your principles? I think that will guide you in the direction that you’re supposed to go. And once you start to align with that, and that path is moving forward in that direction, I think naturally that confidence will kind of generate. And when Jake was saying earlier, you hear this mantra about believing it and seeing it and achieving it. There was a lot of truth in that. I’m a firm believer in the laws of attraction and that what you project and what you put out into the universe, if you will, that is what will be returned to you. I remember specifically, I would walk around the track in prison, because I stayed exercising, and I would literally envision myself in front of audiences, telling my story, moving crowds and things like that. I literally meditated on that. It was almost a form of meditation. I entrenched my thoughts and my belief in that. And I’m in prison still with many, many years left, and so there was nothing tangibly for me to look at and say, “Yeah, that can be my life one day.” But I had to really adopt it up here. And it felt right, because it aligned with my purpose of helping people through my experiences and my education and my journey. And so Julie just really hit the nail on the head with that. If anyone is experiencing some self doubt, spend some time with yourself and figure out what you stand for and what you want to give your energy to. How can you make a difference? And I think I’ll just end it with this: We all have seen the hierarchy of needs by Abraham Maslow, the psychologist. And at the top it was “Self Actualization.” And he said at the time, 2% of people at the time actually reached self actualization because they get bogged down with work, and taking care of family, and they kind of give up on their dreams. And then he went beyond that before he died, and this wasn’t widely publicized. But he said the only way to truly fully self-actualize is when reaching your fullest potential involves other people. It cannot stop with you saying, “I’m going to be the best basketball player or the best father or the best…” anything. It has to involve other people. And so whatever your purpose is, I think the only way it’s truly going to be fulfilling and truly be your purpose is if it involves other people. So I would start there.

Steve: Connection.

Molly: Yeah, that reminds me of… there’s a concept in Japan, I believe it’s pronounced “ikigai”. I’m not sure if any of you have ever heard of it. It’s a combination. Like if you picture a Ven diagram, there’s four circles. And in the middle of that diagram is where all four circles interact. And the four circles represent: what you love; what the world needs; what you are good at; and what you can be paid for. And in the middle of those four circles is the concept of Ikigai. Which is kind of what you were talking about, that higher purpose, that self actualization where not only are you doing what validates and is important to you, but is giving back in some other way, but it’s also supporting you practically and your family practically. And it’s also something that you are good at. Something that maybe you don’t have all the skills at in the beginning, but you start to realize, as you were saying Martin, it just becomes a natural progression of your skills and your personal growth. I’ve always really liked that concept. I think if more people would strive for something that creates that balance in their life, then sobriety would not be as rare of a thing as it is. I think the fact that the majority of society needs to lean on a substance and needs to find an escape is evidence that there’s an over all imbalance in how we’re handling ourselves and handling our lives and our stress. So that’s what that reminded me of.

Jake: I love that. I have to bounce back to what Martin said about when you were in prison, and you were manifesting and prophesying what you wanted to do. And it’s got to be amazing to be standing in front of people and be telling that story now. I mean, I can’t even… I get goosebumps thinking about that. Because there was a time and a place where you thought you would never be able to do that! And I’m pretty sure all of us have had a moment like that, where we felt like, “This is just where I belong, and I don’t know if there will ever be a different way.” I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the movie The Pursuit of Happyness with Will Smith? The Pursuit of Happyness is about a man named Chris Gardner. Chris Gardner is a real person, that movie was a true story. Chris Gardner is now a multi-millionaire, broker, owns a firm in Chicago. Everything you saw him go through in that movie, he went through. His quote, he said, “Speak what you seek until you see what you said.” “Speak what you seek until you see what you said.” The reason why I love that quote so much is because when we speak things, we hear them. What you speak, you hear yourself speaking it. What you hear, you believe. What you believe, you make true. So if you want your life to change, if you want things to change in your life, you have to start speaking them. Just like you did, Martin, you did that! You spoke, “This is what I’m going to do, this is what it’s going to take.” And that’s what you’re doing right now. That’s a testimony in itself. Speak what you seek until you see what you said because what you speak you will hear, and what you hear you will believe, and what you believe you will make reality. That will become your reality, whether good or bad.

Steve: That’s the whole thing about negative self talk and switching that from negative to positive, and even catching yourself. I remember really early on in sobriety, the meanest person to me was me. And it was self correction. Even just changing the sentence so it doesn’t sound bad in my own head, and then sharing it with someone. Because something back in a better way than I was reflecting it to myself. But it sounds so simple, and I think Martin, that’s where it goes back to what you said. Because you when you get stuck in that negative thought cycle, that self doubt, it takes other people to say, “Hey, man. You are worth it. Do you remember what you said, that time that you said you were going to do this?” And you get stuck in that spot where you’re just, “Nope. I was nuts when I said that. I was nuts when I said that the relationship that I was in wasn’t working out. I was nuts when I said I was going to quit because the lie I was going to tell was too big.” All of it, even being here. I mean, for serious, all of that took people. A lot of amazing people.

Julie: There’s a lot to be said for vulnerability in all of this, too. How often are we in a place of self doubt, and we’re just trying to muddle through that by ourselves. As soon as we turn around to someone and say, “Hey, I’m really doubting that I can go through whatever this is.” Gosh, all the way back to just getting sober. As soon as you show up and you tell someone else, “I’m really not sure that I’m going to be able to do this,” you get the support you need. There’s so much to be said for being built up by the people around you when you’re really doubting yourself, in anything that you’re trying to do.

Martin: I would say 1000%. I tell people all the time that we don’t do recovery in isolation. We do it in a community. The worst place we can find ourselves when we are struggling is by ourselves. You’re absolutely right Julie, that when we take that risk. Of course there’s a lot of fear in being vulnerable. Maybe it’s been met with ridicule before, or it’s been met with condemnation, all these negative things. And so you’re scared to jump out there. But if you’re going to get the support that you need, you have to let people know that you need it. It has to start there.

Steve: And the only way to do that is to be vulnerable.

Martin: That’s right.

Julie: And that’s hard.

Martin: Oh, extremely! Especially if your experiences have shown you and told you that this is not safe, to be vulnerable. Negative childhood experiences cause us to put up walls. We don’t trust the world, the world is not to be trusted. There’s a lot of danger out there. And so you become socialized to retreat within yourself and not let the world see who you really are. But that is a dark, lonely, cold place. I’ve not met a person to date who has gotten sober and stayed sober and had a sustained recovery program in isolation. It simply doesn’t work. And I want to say one more thing. We’re talking about people and self doubt and the messages we hear from other people. And I think early on in life, when the self doubt was created, in fact it’s of the psycho-social developmental phases that we go through. That largely comes through the messages that we get from the other people around us as we’re shaping our identity and self concept. So that’s important. However, I think it becomes more important at some point, the messages we tell us about ourselves. Because that’s what reinforces what we think about ourselves, for good or bad. I will literally tell people that I counsel, that struggle with self doubt and self esteem, again it’s nothing ground breaking. Positive affirmations. Start the day, look at yourself in the mirror – not just think these things, literally look yourself in the mirror. I know it sounds silly but trust me it works. Look at yourself, and verbalize, affirm yourself in five positive ways. Whether it be something that you’re proud about, something you think you’re good at, character traits, whatever it is. Affirm those things. Eventually, because you hear yourself say it, eventually it takes root, and you guess what? You actually start to believe it.

Steve: So what do you say about that, Julie? “I’m going to lie to myself three times?”

Julie: Yes! I am so bad at affirmations it’s not even funny. I actually… so we are doing this Self Love challenge on Instagram right now, and one of the things I was supposed to do is positive affirmations. And I know it’s bad, but I just rail against positive affirmations. I feel like I’m lying to myself. So what I did, actually it was really cool. I took something in my life that I’m struggling with, and found a way to flip it into something positive. Right now I’m really very uncertain with the direction that I want my life to go, so I wrote an affirmation specifically about that. Something along the lines of “My life is headed in exactly the direction that it is supposed to be headed.” So when I can take something I’m struggling with, and find something positive to say about it, that actually made affirmations something that I can feel like I can do. I don’t feel like I’m lying to myself anymore. So, made some progress!

Steve: I think it’s really cool how you did that, because you took something that was personal to you, and you personally wrote it back to yourself. You took the negative self talk, and you took the ones that bugging you, really irking you, and you changed that one. I’m going to work on that one. And to me that’s really inspiring because you took something so personal to you, so dear to you. You didn’t pull it out of a card, you didn’t pull out five random ones. You made it specifically about how you are going to grow. I think that right there is going to help remove the self doubt, when you continue to manifest yourself. You’re going to manifest that in a really positive way. I think it’s really cool how you’ve reframed that yourself, because I’ve heard you say that same thing so many times.

One of my favorite things to say is, “What happens when you challenge a past experience? You give yourself a chance at a new one.” Plain and simple. And there’s so many times that we have those past experiences that we let define the next experience that we’re going to have. That instills the self doubt until we let that go and then we can move forward from that.

You guys were absolutely amazing. So awesome to have you guys on. We talked about a lot of things. If I could write all of that down I would, but it’s going to be all recorded. (laughter.) So I’m going to try being willing to suck first. I love that one so much because if you don’t try, nothing is ever going to happen. There are beautiful experiences on the other side of self doubt. Jake, when you said that, hair just stuck up because it’s so true. There are so many times I’ve gone through hard things, and on the other side of those hard things and inside of that was a whole bunch of self doubt until I got to the other side of it. Following and living our values and aligning ourselves with them. All of those core beliefs, the things that we find and we grow and start believing in, once we actually put the bottle down and we start digging into ourselves. Martin, I’m not going to say this right so I’m going to leave it to you – the psycho-social thing, can you say that one more time?

Martin: Sure, so it’s the bio-psycho-social-spiritual model

Steve: That. What he said. It makes a heck of a lot of sense, it’s absolutely beautiful. Martin thank you, Jake thank you, Molly thank you, so much for being on tonight. You guys are absolutely amazing. Thank you for your space and thank you for your time, guys.