In this episode, we talk with our friends Robert and Michal about changing the narrative, what it means to change the stories we’ve held onto throughout our lives. We talk about the stigma of alcoholism and how it stops people from getting the help we need. We talk about changing spiritual beliefs and religious narratives. We also share about the narratives we hold about ourselves, and how that affects both us and the people in our lives.
Listen as we discuss ways to change the lens through which we see the world.
We start by discussing changing the stigma of addiction and alcoholism, and how the shame and judgment stemming from that narrative sometimes stops us from getting the help we need to get sober. We also talk about how that narrative affects medical assistance with quitting drinking, and how it affects the way we see ourselves.
Robert explains that he had to learn that not everybody drinks, and Steve had to learn that it’s okay to show emotions. In a world where all kinds of old narratives are held about men, learning to communicate boundaries and communicate needs is important for men in recovery.
Michal and Julie discuss narratives surrounding the way they saw themselves – not worthy, not lovable, not good enough. We all had to learn how to be authentic, and then how to connect authentically with others around us. This led us to talking about changing the way we see friendship now that we are sober.
And last, we talk about the future, and how changing the way we see and react to the world also affects the people around us, most importantly our children.
Let’s connect!
We would love to hear from you! Keep in touch:
throughtheglassrecovery@gmail.com
Instagram – @through_the_glass_recovery
Transcript:
Julie: Tonight we are here with our friends Michal and Robert. I’m going to ask them both to introduce themselves really quick. Robert, do you want to go first?
Robert: Hey guys, my name is Robert, and I’ve been sober for about two and a half years, and I’ve got to say that my life is changed for the better, it is a 180 degree flip from what it was. I’m really excited to be here, thanks for having me.
Steve: Thanks for coming, Rob.
Julie: Thanks for being here!
And Michal, how are you tonight?
Michal: I am fabulous, thanks for having me, guys. My name is Michal. I am 42 years old. I’ve been on a recovery journey since I was 27, so I’ve been around, doing this thing for a little bit. I am at 41 days since my last slip, but I have over 10 years of sobriety within that period. So, if I hadn’t found this journey and connected with people like yourselves, my story would be very different right now.
Julie: We’re really glad you’re here. And this is Michal’s second time, I think, on this podcast, so thank you for coming back. We appreciate it.
So for the topic tonight. We all have internal narratives that form the way we see the world and the way we experience life. Some of those narratives come from childhood and our families of origin; others come from experiences we’ve lived through later in our lives. And often, as we make our way along the path of recovery, we discover that some of those stories we’ve come to believe need changing. What are some of the long-held beliefs you’ve had to change in your life? How did you do it? How did it play a role in your recovery?
Michal: Lots of stuff to dig into there! One of the things that hit me when I was talking with another group about this earlier as well, is there’s a lot of shame surrounding addiction, and I think a lot of that is taught. We’re taught to look down on people and there’s just a whole narrative that addiction is a choice and addicts are weak. Also, it’s the negativity around it. Not only do I believe that this needs to change in our community and in the health care world, but I have to change my own thinking about what it addiction meant, and what recovery looks like. Because one of the things I really struggled with was a lot of guilt and shame over having a slip. And being able to talk openly with people when that happens and be honest about it without facing judgment and without facing shaming is just massive to me. My own journey has been filled with pitfalls and getting back up. And there is such acceptance and being able to accept myself as a human who struggles with addiction, and that’s acceptable, that’s okay, has made massive shift in how I approach my recovery.
Robert: I’d have to agree completely with what you just said, Michal. What you just said just resonated inside of me. I assumed that the people that were drunk, that were alcoholics and addicts and whatnot lived under bridges and were bums. And everybody in my family was an alcoholic and when I was a kid, I was waiting for them to go missing, and for us to find them underneath a bridge. The shame and the guilt is unreal. It is unreal. And the stigmas are unreal. At the start, sure, I was a victim at the start and I was my ego was smashed and I felt like was broken and this and that, when really I was not. And I thought that alcoholism was all these things that is was not. Two and half years in, I look at things completely differently. I grew up in a family that at 7:30 in the morning, they would be saying “Priorities” to each other and pouring tumblers of vodka. And making Ice Picks or else orange juice and whatever. Alcohol seemed like a normal thing. This was another thing I had to realize when I started meeting people that don’t drink – that some people don’t drink. There’s so many narratives that have to change. But another big one when I was younger… I grew up in a household where my mom was coming from an Orthodox Dutch family and was trying to raise us like that. My dad was coming from a family that didn’t believe, to the point where they didn’t believe in a higher power, they didn’t believe in God, and none of that could exist. So because that didn’t exist, as well atheism can’t exist because one can’t exist without the other. So all of that is just a bunch of whatever and whatnot. And this was the way that I was raised. And I remember hearing other family members saying, “Oh, hey, it’s not for me. Blah blah blah. A cult or this or that. Or recover? No, everybody hates a quitter.” And all these different things, like, “I don’t have a problem, but you have a problem.” And just watching the chaos and the insanity all the time. And then I start a program of recovery and realize that it’s a spiritual disease and this alcohol has taken away my ability to connect on a spiritual level completely. And instead it just layered up a bunch of layers of fear, like a great big onion, and as you pull them off, when you’re trying to deal with the hard stuff, Steve as you say, you’re open to a new experience afterward, kind of stings your eyeballs as you pull off another layer. (laughter) But yeah, then I realized I’ve got to connect to a higher power, I’m gonna start praying, but I don’t know what I believe in. Don’t know who I’m praying to, but I feel something. What is this that I feel? Well, if I feel this, obviously there’s got to be something there. There’s a seed there. There’s something that I can grow. Let’s see what this actually is. And then all of a sudden, I don’t have the want to drink. And all of a sudden my defects of character are becoming less. All of a sudden, I’m less restless, irritable, and discontent. And I’m praying twice a day, and I’m trying to learn how to meditate, which I still find entertaining at times, but I’m doing much better. And all of these things wouldn’t exist if I didn’t change that narrative and realize that part of the reason there’s so much suffering in the rest of my family is that nobody is willing to be vulnerable, no one is willing to ask for help. No one is willing to talk the way that Steve and I talk together. It doesn’t happen. These things are so important. We’ve got to change the narrative, we’ve got to feel love, we’ve got to connect right? So much has to change, just the views on addiction in general are driven by something that I…
Steve: Fear
Robert: Yes!
Julie: Fear, and shame. For me it was shame. I was sober for 14 months the first time go round, and there was so much shame there was no way I was going to talk to anybody about the fact that I was having such a hard time quitting. And I didn’t, I didn’t talk to anybody for the whole time. It took so much in me to just show up and ask for help because of that narrative that it’s only losers and it’s only people who are weak and it’s seen as like, a moral defect or a character flaw. And that’s what I thought it was, it made me feel like I was just a bad person, like something was so wrong with me that I just needed to fix it, and that stopped me from asking for any kind of help or support. I think there’s probably a lot of people out there that still carry that narrative with them, and there’s a lot of our friends and family that still carry that narrative. So it makes it really hard to open up, even with the people that we know and love, because we know what they think of alcoholics. And we don’t want them to look at us the way that they look at the other people. I’ve heard my mom talk about this relative or that relative that has a problem with alcohol, and you can kind of hear the disdain in her voice when she talks about them. And here I am, like, “I am one of those people. I just haven’t told you. And I hide it better than they do.” So you can’t talk about it, and it’s really sad that we can’t just talk. We can finally talk about things like depression and anxiety openly and without judgment, and I wish that we could talk about alcoholism and addiction in general, in the same way that we do everything else. We don’t judge people who say they suffer from depression or anxiety anymore. As a culture, we don’t look down on those people anymore and think there’s something morally wrong with them. I wish we could do the same thing with alcohol.
Michal: Totally. I’m starting to see a bit of a shift in the medical community toward that. I think real, true addiction support specialists are getting better, but it’s still rampant if you talk to you primary care provider about addiction, they’re very hesitant to offer support, they’re very hesitant to do anything. And it’s, yeah… I think that stigma runs deep. And they probably teach it as part of medical school, ya know? (laughter)
Steve: I know for me, when I went to go and see my doctor after I quit, my doctor was like, “Here are some antidepressants. Like that’s basically, like, take a pill. I did. At that point in time I was very very new into this whole thing. I don’t take them anymore. I think a lot of it has to do with changing that whole perspective. I mean, don’t show emotions. You can be a man or a woman, but a lot of us grew up in that generation where we never saw a healthy exchange of emotions between our parents or friends. Growing up for me, I felt like an outsider. So I never really had… I moved a whole bunch of times. I never really had my own sense of community. You see people that have grown up with the same group of friends the entire time and they always had somebody, they had their group of people to fall back on. I was very envious of those people. Those people… I wish I was one of them. And you’d sit in that group of friends and you’d be a part of it for a short period of time, and then you never… the friendships never developed. So talking about emotions, showing emotions, being vulnerable. If that isn’t one of the key parts in any of this recipe of changing all those narratives… it’s talking about the ones that you think are broken in your head. It’s the ones that hold you back. Robert calls it the character defects. We can call it a lot of different things.
Robert: You can call them symptoms of the disease. Because to call them defects of character at all times, when they’re not actually themselves, kind of keep you in a cage, and that’s no good because we need to be free. So maybe be dealing with the ones that are showing, be very aware, but are they defects of character if they’re just arising at times? We can’t really call them that all the time. We pray and we ask our defects to be removed, but we may not have any of those showing. So maybe we can call them symptoms of the disease.
Steve: Or we could call it… like I said, you can call it whatever you want, right? My feelings are hurt. What sense of self was affected first and foremost, because I have to be able to explain and communicate to myself, let alone to somebody else, how that whole things affected me. And then how do I correct it? If it’s a me thing, and it’s a me thing that I have to communicate to somebody… this is one of the other narratives, I actually have to communicate my needs. I have to communicate my boundaries. If I don’t communicate these things properly, how in the hell are you going to know? Effective communication, plain and simple. You can’t read my mind. I can’t read yours. So for us to move forward, we have to talk and the best way to make progress is to be vulnerable.
Robert: And then to allow the change of the narrative.
Michal: And that’s been a big part of the recovery community for me, is learning how to be vulnerable and learning what real friendships are and those real connections. One of the things I was thinking about earlier regarding the topic was one of my firmly held beliefs and one of the beliefs that led me to start drinking when I was younger was that I wasn’t worthy of friendship, I wasn’t likable, I wasn’t lovable, I wasn’t pretty enough or smart enough or funny enough, and alcohol came into my life at that time when my self esteem was so incredibly low that it became that social lubricant that allowed me to feel like I was making those connections. When you know, really, they weren’t real connections. It was just kind of this masquerade to fit the imagine, the social image of fitting in and having friends. But defining what real relationships and real friends are has definitely come with recovery, with sobriety. And really learning what true connections look like.
Robert: Yeah, learning how to be a friend for the first time as an adult is quite interesting, is it not? (laughter)
Steve: Oh, please, let’s talk about this one! That in itself is a great topic. Learning how to be a friend.
Robert: Learning how to be a friend. And I’ve got to say, it’s been quite rewarding. And there’s been ups and downs, and I’ve actually felt different insecurities that I’ve never felt before which gave me the opportunity to be aware of what those insecurities really were. And then for my actions, instead of just working on impulse, just taking a second, and actually figuring out what my motives are for my actions, and then realizing that my first impulse might not actually be what I wanted to do, and then I’m doing something totally different. And now…
Michal: Think before you react! Unheard of!
Robert: Right? Think before you act. But getting back to that changing of narrative. I grew up in a family that was very materialistic and everyone was a narcissist. They simply liked to watch themselves exist. It was wild. And was the outcast, I was the scapegoat, I was their whipping post. Said all these crazy things about me that didn’t even exist to friends and family, it was just wild. But very materialistic and within those philosophies of ideologies of materialism, I mean we’re just atoms, right? There’s a bit of space in between these, right? So there’s vibration that flows. But in a materialistic world, in that ideology, when we die, we die, and we are done. That is it. Now here’s the thing. Let’s talk about taking on a whole new narrative. So I’m gonna go down the spiritual path. And now as I’m going down the spiritual path, I’m going to learn that we don’t die. Everything that has energy does transfer on, and that I’m a part of the universe. I am not special, I am not anything that is separate from, I am a part of everything that does carry an energy frequency. So you live your life, your entire life, thinking that you don’t have any other purpose than to just be here in this moment with these things that you can hold, this materialistic approach to everything, which is very selfish, self centered and power of the lust for greed, or greed of lust, wrapped up in power. However you want to call it. And it’s ugly, right? So now we go to an idealistic approach, a spiritual approach, one that is mind body and soul connected to nature, connected to the universe. Connected to the celestial bodies up in the sky. There’s a relationship way bigger than what we know, but to try to tap into these things, why not? So now this materialistic approach is gone, spiritualistic view is trying to take hold, and now we have an idealistic approach on things and instead of being told what to think learning how to think. So every event in life that kind of comes through, now I observe it and letting it pass by, like we’ve been told to do. I’ll observe this event, I’ll observe what’s on the side of this event that normally I would not even bring into my observations, and now I will think, very very closely about as to what I’m thinking, what I’m observing. And then I’ll ask myself, “Do I like the way that I’m thinking about what I’m thinking?” Very, very, very good question to ask. And now all of a sudden, what I’m observing is totally different than what I’ve been told to observe. Now I’m observing something from inward out, but it’s not just me. It’s actually a connection to the universe, and it’s so much bigger. And the power in it is overwhelming. And the journey is exciting.
Julie: I think it takes a lot of courage to do what you’re saying there.
Robert: Very difficult process. Yes, it takes courage because you look at the things that normally you turn your head. And this is where the true answers to the universe as you could say, but the way that you actually connect to it, are found. It’s not by what’s right in front of you, it’s by what’s to the side of you. And it’s what you sometimes turn your head and not look at, but to really observe those things to learn them. To have some really difficult times within them. To have a new experience like it says on the back of that brilliant shirt you guys have created. It says it all. Right? But yeah. Go on, go on.
Julie: Yeah, it takes a lot of courage to question anything we’ve been taught and told to believe. That is what changing the narrative is. And it takes a lot of confidence, I think, in who we are, to change anything. Whether it’s what your spiritual beliefs are, or what your beliefs are about the world, or what your beliefs about yourself are, I know for me, a big part of it was the beliefs that I held about myself, and beliefs that I held about myself since I was little. That it goes against what we’ve been taught, and it goes against what’s been ingrained in us since we were small. And it takes a lot of confidence to stand up to that, and say, “Wait, I’m not sure that this story that I was told is actually true.” I had this moment with my youngest daughter. And she’s going to kill me if she ever listens to this podcast, but I’m gonna tell this story anyway, because it was a big one for me! So she is starting to spend some time with this boy, and he’s a wonderful kid. And she’s talking to him on the phone and I can hear her, and she’s giggly and bouncy and she’s so, so excited. She’s my kid, she comes by it honestly, she’s so full of joy that it’s bubbling out of her, and everything in me wants to be like, “You need to tone that down, girl. Like chill out, you are gonna be too much for that boy, and he is gonna be like, ‘Can’t do it.’” Right? That’s what I want to tell her. And I’m watching this, and I cannot say that to her. That’s exactly what was said to me when I was little. And then when I was a teenagers. I was always… I feel things so big. And it was always too much. Especially for the adults in my life, my parents and close relatives. And all that did was force me to start shutting everything down and trying to make all of those emotions smaller and smaller, because the people around me didn’t feel comfortable with them. And that would be so unfair to do to her. And what that did to me was make me try to be somebody that I wasn’t so that I wasn’t too much for somebody. So I started just shaping myself into what I thought everybody would like, so that I would have friends or so I would have a boyfriend. And that’s the last thing I want to do to her. But it’s interesting how hard it is for me not to say, “Just tone it down a little bit, kid.” And yeah, it’s narratives like that – they shape who we are from such a young age. And authenticity has been a really huge piece of recovery for me, just being who I really am, which for me is terrifying. Because every time I let my authentic self out, even as a teenager, I felt like I was rejected in some form or another for it. So the real version of me is so, so far gone. It’s been a year of just trying to find her. The last thing I want to do to my kid is have her start that same path, that same journey, and start trying to shut everything down and then be miserable and then drink because of it. And I think that’s something else too, is that as soon as we identify these narratives, we get to pass the new things that we learn, and the open minded-ness onto our kids, which then gives me a little bit of hope. I don’t know that I would have explored any of these narratives to begin with, had I not actually decide to face my alcoholism and start the path of recovery, but now I get to pass some of this stuff on to my kid (or in some ways, not pass stuff on to my kid.) Which is a really cool piece of changing the narrative, I think.
Michal: It is.
Steve: I think you bring up a really cool point. Not only are we changing the narrative that we tell ourselves, the one that we’ve been told. If it’s the one that we’ve been told, it’s the one that we’ve seen throughout our lives, and then as you change that, the narrative around you starts changing, too. Whether that is someone who is there with you through part of that, and then you outgrow them, because they’re not a part of that narrative anymore, or like your daughter, you start changing the narrative of the way she sees things, because of what you’ve learned. So, I think our parents have tried to do the same thing from what their parents… When they were raised, our parents tried to change their narrative, doing the best they could. At least mine did, did the best they could with what they had. And then through this journey, I can look at all of that now and say if I do this work, if I do my internal work, it just gets naturally shared with who is around me. Whether it’s my family or it’s my friends, or the things that you learn because I can actually say something. One of my narratives was not to talk. If I said too much I would hear about it. “Why did you say that?” Then I would have to defend myself and explain. “Well, I mean, what’s the big deal?” “Well, you don’t need to talk about that, then they’re just going to ask questions.” What do I have to hide? I lived so long hiding behind a narrative to keep it when it wasn’t real to begin with! And now I don’t have to. I don’t have to at all.
Michal: Absolutely. It’s interesting, this isn’t necessarily drinking related, but it made me think about parents and the way that we either try to mimic or shadow the ways that we were raised, or we decide to go completely against it. Right? I grew up in a home where my parents had very difficult family relations growing up. They were raised by emotionally distant parents. And so they took that and they actually learned from it, and they made sure that they were very emotionally available parents. They actually taught us to be able to express emotions, to be able to talk. And I’m kind of an unusual narrative in the rooms because I did have that wonderful healthy, open upbringing. And that’s not everyone’s story. I was very lucky to have a supportive home, and I do think that played a part in being able to work on turning myself around at a younger age than a lot. I kind of knew there was this other way to be out there, and I just didnt’ know what I was hiding from, what I was burying. But yeah, I just find it fascinating how it tends to go one of two ways. We either mimic how we were brought up, or we fly in the face of it to try to not be that person.
Robert: Oh, yes. I agree with you completely. So, hearing your story is very refreshing, I love that. And my wife, she has really nice parents too. I consider her parents my parents. My parents were really abusive, it’s absolutely horrendous. I’m estranged from them. I keep my girls from them so I can keep then safe, so that the abuse doesn’t happen to them as well. But there’s the change in the narrative. I don’t want my girls to see that stuff. I don’t want them to be influenced in that way. I want something totally different for them. Right? And I don’t want my daughters growing up with a drunken father. I don’t want it. Staying sober is quite easy actually, because I work my butt off constantly, and I pray to a higher power, and I’ve been reading a lot of different books on spirituality. I find that that’s kind of what’s helping me keep sober now. It’s a little bit different than what was keeping me sober at the start. And it’s just this journey and it’s so cool. And like the connection I’m feeling with you guys right now, it’s amazing. I’ve got to be honest, I’ve needed this all day long. Things have been kind of off, and normally when things are off I hide and I go into a shell. So let’s change the narrative, let’s go and connect with a bunch of people that I don’t know! And I’m so glad that I have. This is a wonderful experience. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again – I really enjoy recovery. The narrative’s got to change constantly. We need to live a new experience daily and in the moment. It’s required for this disease. We need to keep growing. We can’t stay stagnant.
Michal: And that brings up a fabulous point. Talking about when you’re first getting into early recovery, versus what that journey looks like. Fear and discomfort and misery… we tend to all have those things in common when we decide to get sober. We’re scared of the repercussions, we’re scared of how we feel, we’ve lost major things in our lives. So most of us get there for some sort of negative reason. Some negative consequence has brought us there that we don’t want to experience anymore. But the longer you spend on the path, in recovery, the people who really get sober and get this and live this, change their lives. We change our own narratives. By not being afraid of drinking anymore, by not looking at those things anymore. Maybe I say, “I don’t ever want to have a hangover again,” but that’s not my reason for not drinking anymore. My reason is I enjoy my life as a sober person. I am awake, I am one hundred percent present, and I have fun with recovery. And it doesn’t feel like that when you first get there. It doesn’t feel like you’re ever going to have fun again without a drink. It’s terrifying to fathom going 24 hours, much less 24 months, 24 years, right? Without drinking. And so our narrative changes on that path. And we realize like, “Oh my God, this is fun! This is good, this feels good.” It feels good to connect with others who get me. It feels good to help people who may not be as far along as I am, and I can tell them what happened to me and how it changed. And maybe it’ll help make an impact in their path.
Robert: Yeah, and it’s so cool because when you’re doing that, while you’re helping out like that, you realize all of a sudden that you’re sharing your story, but you’re not feeling that shame, right here, anymore, that you used to feel for it. And you realize, this is a tool, and that this happened for a reason, so you can help somebody else. And it’s just, it’s amazing. And then, when we’re not carrying the shame anymore, life can really happen on life’s terms. Because we’re not trying to control everything, we’re not trying to hide from anything. Everything is right out there in the open, and it’s all good stuff, even the hard stuff. Because the hard stuff only makes you work to make things so it’s better the next time, and just live it new. I love what you just said.
Steve: The gift that keeps on giving.
Michal: That’s right
Steve: Robert you mentioned something, you mentioned what I have written on the back of my t-shirt. And that’s “What happens when you challenge a past experience? You give yourself a chance at a new one.” And that’s really what we’re talking about here. So I would like to say thank you Robert, thank you Michal, for coming on tonight, joining us, sharing your thoughts and experiences, we really appreciate it.
Michal: My pleasure, it was amazing! Like Robert said, this was a wonderful group, really clicked with everyone, really enjoyed having this conversation with you all tonight.
Robert: That’s exactly the way I feel! So yeah, thank you all so much, I feel so honored to be here. Steve, I love ya, you know I do. And I love you both too as well now. Not strangers, just friends we haven’t met sort of thing, right? But yeah, thank you so much for this time guys.
Julie: Yeah, thank you guys, we really appreciate you.
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